Newest 'multi-signature' Questions - Bitcoin Stack Exchange

Lightning Network is being built for *banks* and not for regular users. It is being pushed and falsely marketed as a solution for users. Just like they did with Segwit as being a solution to the block size issue.

The “solution” of LN does not solve issues that regular people encounter. In fact it makes things more difficult. It’s for banks to settle on. There is not another practical use.
It is my belief that LN’s actual intent has nothing at all to do with helping regular users.
Look what Chris Pacia from Open Bazaar has to say:
To be more specific:
1) Vendors need to remain online 24/7 to receive orders.
One of primary pieces of feedback from OpenBazaar 1.0 was that vendors did not like having to run a server on their home computer 24/7 to make sales. That requirement was a remant of the original Dark Market design and it was one of the primary things we wanted to change for OpenBazaar 2.0. For 2.0 we spent an enormous amount of time re-architecting OpenBazaar (and moved to IPFS) specifically to allow vendors to receive orders while they are offline. With the LN vendors need to remain online to provide a hash to all would-be purchasers to kick off the lightning payment. If the vendor is not online, the payment cannot be made. This would represent a significant regression in the user experience and would bring back the primary user complaint from OpenBazaar 1.0.
2) Vendors cannot receive LN payments without a third party liquidity provider.
If a vendor opens OpenBazaar, opens a payment channel, lists some items, then receives an order, the buyer cannot pay for the order over LN since the vendor's counterparty does not have any funds in his side of the channel to send to the vendor. The only way for the vendor to receive an incoming payment is to have buyers open a direct channel (innefficient and unacceptably expensive) or open a channel with an intitutional liquidity provider who agrees (probably for a fee) to deposit money in the vendor's channel to facilitate incoming payments. This is not a great UX and introduces some significant friction into the app (not to mention no such insitutional liquidity providers currently exist). Moreover it's difficult to calculate exactly how much money the liquidity provider should deposit in the channel. Is $1,000 enough? Hard to say. If buyers try to pay more than $1,000 worth of orders before the vendor can spend the coins out of the channel (presumably to an exchange) then the those additional payments cannot be made. This creates a weird UX where the vendor has to continually try to juggle the amount of funds available in the incoming side of the channel to ensure that there is enough liquidity to facilitate payments.
3) Vendors will need third party "watchers".
Since OpenBazaar users have expressed distain for a requirement to a full node to use the software, they would be left with the rather ugly solution to having to hire a third party "watcher" (which currently do not exist) to protect them from fraud.
4) Lightning currently does not do multisig.
Escrowed payments are a necessary prerequisit for any decentralized marketplace to function. In theory lightning payments could use 2 out of 3 hashes in the HTLC, but no software currently supports this functionality and doing so introduces dramatically more complexity on top of an already dramatically complex protocol. And it would require the moderators to remain online at all times else escrowed payments could not be made.
5) It's not clear that LN payments will be 100% reliable.
Whether a payment can find a route depends on how many people use LN and how they use it. If the routing paths simply do not exist or if they exist but lack the needed capacity than payments can not be made. For an app like OpenBazaar to gain any kind of sizable user base, the app (including the payment layer) needs to be 100% reliable. If this is not the case it will make the app feel broken and discourage many people from using it. At this point in time we do not know if 100% reliability in payment routing is likely or not.
In my opinion at present time using just about any coin other than Bitcoin removes all of the above frictions and provides a much better user experience. Unless the benefits of lightning (relative to the alternatives) outweigh these costs outlined above, or they find a way to remedy the issues defined above, it doesn't make much sense to implement LN in OpenBazaar. Source
———————————————
Now, look what Ryan X. Charles (CEO of Yours.org) says about LN:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ew2MWVtNAt0
————————————————
Both the above people are heavily involved with actually using bitcoin from a business point of view. They are not just casual onlookers. And they say LN doesn’t work for them. The only conclusion I can come to is:

LN is for banks. Only.

submitted by BitcoinIsTehFuture to btc [link] [comments]

Lightning Network is being built for *banks* and not for regular users. It is being pushed and falsely marketed as a solution for users. Just like they did with Segwit as being a solution to the block size issue. LN is for banks. Only.

The “solution” of LN does not solve issues that regular people encounter. In fact it makes things more difficult. It’s for banks to settle on. There is not another practical use.
It is my belief that LN’s actual intent has nothing at all to do with helping regular users.
Look what Chris Pacia from Open Bazaar has to say:
To be more specific:
1) Vendors need to remain online 24/7 to receive orders.
One of primary pieces of feedback from OpenBazaar 1.0 was that vendors did not like having to run a server on their home computer 24/7 to make sales. That requirement was a remant of the original Dark Market design and it was one of the primary things we wanted to change for OpenBazaar 2.0. For 2.0 we spent an enormous amount of time re-architecting OpenBazaar (and moved to IPFS) specifically to allow vendors to receive orders while they are offline. With the LN vendors need to remain online to provide a hash to all would-be purchasers to kick off the lightning payment. If the vendor is not online, the payment cannot be made. This would represent a significant regression in the user experience and would bring back the primary user complaint from OpenBazaar 1.0.
2) Vendors cannot receive LN payments without a third party liquidity provider.
If a vendor opens OpenBazaar, opens a payment channel, lists some items, then receives an order, the buyer cannot pay for the order over LN since the vendor's counterparty does not have any funds in his side of the channel to send to the vendor. The only way for the vendor to receive an incoming payment is to have buyers open a direct channel (innefficient and unacceptably expensive) or open a channel with an intitutional liquidity provider who agrees (probably for a fee) to deposit money in the vendor's channel to facilitate incoming payments. This is not a great UX and introduces some significant friction into the app (not to mention no such insitutional liquidity providers currently exist). Moreover it's difficult to calculate exactly how much money the liquidity provider should deposit in the channel. Is $1,000 enough? Hard to say. If buyers try to pay more than $1,000 worth of orders before the vendor can spend the coins out of the channel (presumably to an exchange) then the those additional payments cannot be made. This creates a weird UX where the vendor has to continually try to juggle the amount of funds available in the incoming side of the channel to ensure that there is enough liquidity to facilitate payments.
3) Vendors will need third party "watchers".
Since OpenBazaar users have expressed distain for a requirement to a full node to use the software, they would be left with the rather ugly solution to having to hire a third party "watcher" (which currently do not exist) to protect them from fraud.
4) Lightning currently does not do multisig.
Escrowed payments are a necessary prerequisit for any decentralized marketplace to function. In theory lightning payments could use 2 out of 3 hashes in the HTLC, but no software currently supports this functionality and doing so introduces dramatically more complexity on top of an already dramatically complex protocol. And it would require the moderators to remain online at all times else escrowed payments could not be made.
5) It's not clear that LN payments will be 100% reliable.
Whether a payment can find a route depends on how many people use LN and how they use it. If the routing paths simply do not exist or if they exist but lack the needed capacity than payments can not be made. For an app like OpenBazaar to gain any kind of sizable user base, the app (including the payment layer) needs to be 100% reliable. If this is not the case it will make the app feel broken and discourage many people from using it. At this point in time we do not know if 100% reliability in payment routing is likely or not.
In my opinion at present time using just about any coin other than Bitcoin removes all of the above frictions and provides a much better user experience. Unless the benefits of lightning (relative to the alternatives) outweigh these costs outlined above, or they find a way to remedy the issues defined above, it doesn't make much sense to implement LN in OpenBazaar. Source
———————————————
Now, look what Ryan X. Charles (CEO of Yours.org) says about LN:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ew2MWVtNAt0
————————————————
Both the above people are heavily involved with actually using bitcoin from a business point of view. They are not just casual onlookers. And they say LN doesn’t work for them. The only conclusion I can come to is:

LN is for banks. Only.

submitted by BitcoinIsTehFuture to Bitcoincash [link] [comments]

Thoughts about Russia

Russia has very advanced payment infrastructure. If U.S. has strictly controled by bankers chargeback system, in Russia there is a freedom: no chargebacks, only 1 middleman - the bank itself, no fees, services accessible 24/7 - all transactions are irreverisble & supported by the most popular systems:
Each users of these systems are having access to unregulated by government quick payments, which is irreversible, immediate & fast. And almost 80% of Russian citizens know how to use at least 1 of these systems.
So basically what Andreas Antonopoulos spoke about developing countries isn't touching Russia. Here's a challenge for you - for my 5 years experience with Bitcoin, I've never heard any criticism related to this systems. In other words I never heard why Bitcoin is better than QIWI/SBERBANK/WEBMONEY/YANDEXMONEY. WebMoney even has their WMX Bitcoin wallets integrated, all the other systems oriented on using fiat, but the fiat is pretty quick in Russia.
My basical thought is that Bitcoin community have at least 130 million users in Russia who don't know that they are already using Bitcoin, by using those systems. How? Each of these systems are connect users with simple ability - to send money to each other in the matter of milliseconds. These opens the ability for true P2P exchanges with escrow contracts, since there's no ability to chargebacks (i.e. Multisig).
Think of Bitcoin like any of the language. Cash is face-to-face language - you can talk with people when you approach them face-to-face. QIWI/Sberbank/YM/WM are our electronic languages, basically its a chat system for money in Russia, so yes I'm also considering the money as a content type. So when you're asking Russian - why you start accepting Bitcoin, is the same as asking Russian "Why don't you speak English?". Because they don't want to learn language. Basically this point is valid only because, you should agree with the fact that Bitcoin is also programming language (Bitcoin is a programmable money, it is a digital money, so Bitcoin is programming language, and only after that it is a currency - right?)
So since people can easily talk Russian between each other in Russian (the same way as they can easily talk QIWI/Sberbank/YM/WM) why they need Bitcoin?. Here's my answer. They need Bitcoin, because Bitcoin is an International language. The arguments here goes the same as with an English.
Hidden message to watchmybits: Guys, I really appreciate your project, but you better think multidimentionally, QIWI/Sberbank/YM/WM also offering microtransactions with 0% fee, quick, irreversible, unregulated payments, moreover if you would offer your users to pay for videos using rubles through this system, this wouldn't be really challenging technical task, but in exchange you would get 100 millions of Russians who already know how to use QIWI/SBERBANK/YM/WM. I have another idea for watchmybits: why don't create some PHP-scripts encrypted by zend/whatever (or even opensource), which could help Russian users using QIWI/Sberbank/YM/WM to receive microdonations for their videos.
Let's say you want to help Russian YouTube content creator sell their video to a user for $0.49. All you need to do is to offer them php-script which that YouTube content creator can upload to their official web-site (why someone should upload video on WatchMyBit, when they don't know this platform - its almost like uploading your video on some unknown web-site & then advertising that unknown web-site which even don't speaks Russian).
Appeal to Bitcoin community: you may not speak our national language (Russian) and you may not share our values. But understand that for total success, you have to learn how to speak our Marketing language & our Payment language. Most people don't get Bitcoin, don't teach them. Build your gateways through QIWI/SBERBANK/YM/WM, and penetrate into Russia by introducing services upon QIWI/SBERBANK/YM/WM - that's what Russians expect you to do.
submitted by adamusina to Bitcoin [link] [comments]

Seriously guys - why do you keep using escrows? There are better solutions for this (multisig) and this shit won't stop until you start using them!

The last SR2 hack/theft just proved it again - putting a shitload of money under the control of some individual/marketplace is not safe.
Bitcoin provides a much safer and better way to do this with multi-signature transactions. Can someone explain to me why people are still using escrows??
A few months ago a good excuse would be that multi-sig are still not usable by anyone, but its not true anymore. There are sites that allows doing that, like ms-brainwallet.org (low-level, brainwallet.org-like interface) and www.bitrated.com (easy gui specifically for arbitration). Start using them!
Fro those who don't know: multisig works like escrow with a third party that can refund payments, but he can only decide if the buyeseller gets it and can't steal the money. Mike Hearn explains it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD4L7xDNCmA&t=5m
submitted by mrjohne to Bitcoin [link] [comments]

AMA Brandan Eich - Creator of Javascript, Mozilla Firefox & Brave Software in Ark slack

boldninja @brendaneich hi Brendan welcome to Ark slack - Brendan is the creator of JavaScript, co-founder of Mozilla / Firefox & Brave Software and today we'll host AMA with him regarding his upcoming project http://basicattentiontoken.org/ BasicAttentionToken
moobox i think i'm gonna forget about bitbay and keep it
dr10 hi brendan
brendaneich hi
dr10 nice to have you here :smile:
boldninja hi Brendan - thanks for joining us today
brendaneich happy to be here @boldninja
tranzer hi @brendaneich , I have a question regarding BAT. Will you have limited number of tokens or will you have inflation? When do you plan to start ICO? (edited)
michaelthecryptoguy Hello Brendan. Nice to have you in the ark community slack channel
mward Hello
moobox the ironies of old age. you can afford the sports car you dreamed of as a kid, but your back hurts too much to sit in it.
dr10 Will Mozilla- and Chrome-Plugins be usuable for Brave browser? Will Brave Browser be able to sync bookmarks?
mike hi brendan
cannabanana is the BAT token just an ETH asset or will it be a new blockchain technology? if the first, why ETH instead of your own block chain? :smile: (edited)
brendaneich @dr10 two questions, first one first
jonathansampson @dr10 Chrome extensions are supported today, I wrote a short walkthrough on how we (I'm an engineer on Brave) test extensions before adopting for official support. https://blog.brave.com/loading-chrome-extensions-in-brave/ Happy to answer any questions you may have. (edited)
brendaneich 1. Brave on laptop/desktop uses chromium and we support chromium extensions, but curate them into our own S3 from the Chrome Web Store ah, there is @jonathansampson on to second q
jakethepanda @brendaneich How will Brave detect bots designed to give fake attention? (edited)
brendaneich 2. Brave's client-encrypted sync is in beta now, if you use iOS i can connect you with the devs to get a beta build. it works between laptop/desktop systems already, and is coming up in Android too @cannabanana BAT is an ERC20 token on Ethereum. we need smart contracts and benefit from multiple token launches proving the tech and approach no desire to do our own blockchain
mward The BAT wallet will be implemented in Brave browser as a plug-in?
brendaneich we are pragmatists, use bitcoin already in Brave for auto-microdonations
cannabanana will you only accept ethereum for the ICO or will you also be accepting bitcoin?
brendaneich @jakethepanda please see https://www.reddit.com/BATProject/comments/61kw7f/question/dfxkuus/ reddit Question • BATProject We have answers, you may not be surprised by them: 1. Rate-limiting. Bots can fake human ad viewing (see https://whiteops.com/methbot), but we'll... @mward no, deeper integration than an extension (plugin still is overloaded for old-style stuff like Flash) can have
brendaneich @cannabanana ETH only, as BAT is an ERC20 token -- we are not launching a new exchange or anything, so other currencies have to be exchanged to buy BAT
boldninja When do you plan to start your initial token offer, will there be any hard cap?
jakethepanda @brendaneich Is this right? Users opt into the BAT system and get paid for their attention. Advertisers pay for ads with BAT. Through a smart contract, BAT is unlocked as users give the ad attention. The unlocked BAT is split up between users, Brave, and publishers.
brendaneich @mward we have BitGo provided bitcoin wallet integration in Brave already, ofc the wallet is on the blockchain not in Brave but the deeper integration is for the private, "chartbeats in your browser" auto-microdonation analytics, and the anonize.org-based ZKP protocol over VPN to communicate your donations w/o loss of anonymity or fingerprinting via the list of your top sites
@jakethepanda that is the goal but doing it with real-time BAT flow is in the future, the "Apollo" (or Mars mission) space program phase; we're in "Mercury Redstone" rn, monkeys in buckets on parabolic paths
nt91 When is ico
brendaneich @boldninja @nt91 we haven't announced the date but will very (very) soon, just getting logistics and final audits done
@boldninja cap is $15M of ETH so we have to pin the ratio close to launch given recent vol.
dr10 How will you get Brave Browser to the masses? Any marketing campaign you like to sum up? Any bigger announcement or plan?
jakethepanda How is the split determined between users, publishers and Brave?
brendaneich @dr10 we are growing, mostly organically right now, under 1M MAU but we will (in best case of crowdsale) spend more to growth-hack, which is advertising + funnel analytics / retention analysis loop
tranzer @brendaneich don't know if you have been following tokencard ICO, but they had kind of a fuckup with their smart contract, also they didn't give their address of contract literally before it started. How will you go about this? Will smart contract, address be known beforehand?
brendaneich an important point: if we hit cap we will found a trade group for attention apps and get other apps on board to use BAT and help us get to scale faster with buy side of ad-tech system, also with bigger donor cohorts via membership in trade association
nt91 Once launched how quickly isit likely to join the exchange
brendaneich @tranzer we followed that closely, it was Not Good. we are using a super-simple contract based on FirstBlood, Golem, StandardToken
mward How will you make the crowdsale? Like Gnosis? (Dutch action) The BAT token wil have fixed price at the time of ico?
brendaneich @nt91 can't say, not our biz and we are building the "in game" economics first so exchanges can come any time
brendaneich @mward fixed ratio of BAT for ETH
fixcrypt @brendaneich will all the tx recorded on eth blockchain, or will you manage some sort of payment channels?
dr10 Do you plan to integrate decentralized VPN or Tor-Like stuff? Your browser is really fast, will these things slow it down? Or didnt plan any of this?
brendaneich @fixcrypt all on chain, no preselling, no funny stuff -- we believe in simplicity first, given all the experience in this space
mike would you be interested in using a different blockchain to eliminate all the overhead of paying such a huge network of computers on ethereum to each process every single contract on each computer? (edited)
cannabanana I hope you guys will reconsider accepting more than just eth for the ICO. I have not been able to invest in any of the past like 5 good ones. There's a whole segment of people who wont touch ETH.
tranzer @brendaneich ok I know this is not about BAT, but did you know that Ark is built in JavaScript :smile: ?
fixcrypt @brendaneich how many tx are we talking about? 1 each time there is a basic attention detected? (edited)
brendaneich @dr10 we are going to do Tor private tabs, see https://github.com/brave/browser-laptop/wiki/Brave-Tor-Support GitHub brave/browser-laptop browser-laptop - Brave browser for Desktop and Laptop computers running Windows, OSX, and Linux
we will make it possible to pick a region for exit node from Tor relay network -- so you can unlock region-locked videos, e.g.
yes, Tor slows things down and Tor private tabs turn on fingerprinting protection, turn off most JS, etc. -- that's a good thing
michaelthecryptoguy Very Nice!!
brendaneich @mike i'm a pragmatist and will use whatever blockchain is big enough, robust enough, has functionality we need (smart contracts, ZKP anonymity coming along, etc.). Zcash adding token support this fall, i hear. we don't multiply risk by jumping on bandwagons whose wheels are still off :wink:. we do not try 10 hard things at once -- space program from monkey in can to moon
@cannabanana we are launching an ERC20 token on Ethereum, you buy with ETH, we are not an exchange
the few launches whose contracts hardcoded a bitcoin address were launching exchange-like projects, so could take the risk
we are not doing that
separate concerns
@tranzer i heard :wink:
twitchard What do you think the adoption function for BAT looks like. Do you think there's a critical mass at which adoption will drastically speed up? Or do you think it is more gradual
brendaneich @fixcrypt no, in early phases of BAT program we cannot put each attention event on chain
obv. the chain is too costly, also: not anonymous! big tracking prob
fixcrypt agree
brendaneich we build in hybrid fashion
Brave already has anonize.org v2 ZKP integrated
requires centralized but open source accounting server
fixcrypt ah yes make sense
brendaneich we'd like someone else to run that (escrow, also could add exchange to fiat as publishers like being paid in fiat)
dr10 Can I visit websites, that block Users, that use addblock? Is there a way to work around this? Currently I use brave browser and some pages block me, because of using addblock. What is your solution to this or do you think these website will change their behaviour?
brendaneich if we can do server to client remote attestation (see https://www.npmjs.com/package/secureworker) we will npm secureworker Run JavaScript inside an Intel SGX enclave
jonathansampson @dr10 That's a bug; let us know which sites are detecting Brave as an ad-blocker, and we'll file Issues on GitHub. We're constantly making improvements in this space, and recalibrating as necessary :slightly_smiling_face:
brendaneich eventually it should all decentralize but that requires the blockchain (a blockchain; could be red-headed lovechild of Ethereum and Zcash lol) to do anonymity and microtransactions both very well
fixcrypt so payment are done on blockchain, but it basically validates on a daily basis a centralised payment channel between all stakeholders
mike like the chart on ad percentages of sites in the whitepaper. I've noticed for a long time the mainstream news sites are the worst to go to, a literal assault on the browser visiting them - have avoided going to them as a result, think you're on to something to mitigate this.
dr10 I visited a german boulevard magazine www.bild.de
brendaneich bild.de makes my eyes bleed
dr10 so normally this wouldnt be the case?
yeah its just an example lol
because I know they block addblock people
jonathansampson @dr10 I'll file an issue immediately!
brendaneich @dr10 we get around forbes, wired, latimes, many other anti-adblockers
michaelthecryptoguy Will these be done on a multi - channel?
brendaneich publishers who put up such user-hostile dialogs tend to lose alexa/comscore share
gotta catch up on the Qs
@fixcrypt next
tell me if i missed you
fixcrypt no pb
tranzer Haven't used Brave yet, might try after today, but is it same memory hungry as Chrome is?
twitchard :wave:
1nfinite concerning the ICO - will there only be one? meaning all 700m coins will be distributed through this initial $15m ICO (meaning $1 will net you about 46BAT)? sorry if I'm misunderstanding some of the info you've put out in asking this
dr10 What if I want to support Live-Streams (twitch) or youtube videos by watching their ad (which is not part of the brave system) Can I still turn off this mechanism?
brendaneich @fixcrypt yes, we buffer automicrodonations over 30 days of your uptime (varies by user; if you go on vacation those days don't count) and send Anonize ZKP votes (one per voting session, all over VPN) to our accounting server, along with the total bitcoin per 30 days you pledged. this goes into settlement wallet, the votes go into accounting db
we want to decentralize this as noted, just repeating in case anyone missed
fixcrypt decentralize this will be hard, maybe when segwit is enabled on bitcoin, but ETH, i have no idea (edited)
brendaneich @michaelthecryptoguy sorry, what did you mean by multi-channel?
jonathansampson @dr10 You can track the bild.de issue here: https://github.com/brave/browser-laptop/issues/6758 (Thank you again for reporting) (edited)
fixcrypt i think decentralizing everything is not always the best solution
brendaneich @tranzer we use less memory than chrome by virtue of ad and tracker blocking but we have some bugs to fix pre-1.0 (which i think will be in june) -- i use brave on all OSes, also use a bit of other browsers to keep up with joneses but i've cut back and tried to live in brave. on macOS i am still bugged by mem use (i'm a tab hoarder) and some lag bugs but we are on them -- will fix this month!
michaelthecryptoguy one blockchain ledger with multiple transactions, instead of being signed one at a time (edited)
brendaneich @1nfinite yes, selling 700M, floating 300M on side for user growth pool (100M), trade association, team, and future reserve
1nfinite thanks!
tranzer so 70% to ICO and 30% for team / user growth? Sounds reasonable (more than gnosis :joy: )
moobox this is great to talk to brave devs - pls to make websites look like this: http://i.imgur.com/00mQ8mc.png (173kB)
brendaneich @fixcrypt you could be right, centralization or let's say trusted third parties have existed since at least agriculture (10K years?) so we as pragmatists must consider some -- but we don't like "trust me" / "don't be evil", we prefer "trust Math" / "can't be evil"
michaelthecryptoguy then the last transaction is added to the blockchain
dafty what failsafes are planned to stop bots (eg, running selenium) from mocking a real human and gaining bat tokens? how do you know a user is actually a user?
jonathansampson @moobox We will support themes in a future release, as well as extensions to modify page presentation. If you have any favorites, please let us know :slightly_smiling_face:
moobox thank you sir
michaelthecryptoguy to improve the cost of using eth network
dr10 There are lot of small companies, Twitch/Youtube content creators which live by ads. These ads aren't yet part of the Brave-System. Will there be a smooth transition? Can I still turn off the brave-mechanism and watch these ordinairy ads, to support individuals or are they forced to switch over to Brave?
fixcrypt @brendaneich trust the code that can be hacked, or trust the people that can be evil… Make your choice. DAO vs Banks
brendaneich @michaelthecryptoguy yes, we must batch -- at first in-browser. auditable open source required, verified builds if OS/toolchain support them. there is a level of endpoint software trust in any attention ecosystem but part of the trade association idea is to standardize stuff, including ZKP and VPN rules for submitting the private ledger to the blockchain or equivalent, also auditing requirements to use BAT
cannabanana I trust bitcoin but I don't trust bitmain is not evil
brendaneich @moobox are you just asking for a dark theme? on our roadmap
moobox well this is a plugin for firefox that swaps out all website colors - nothing like it for chrome yet except an ugllly one
brendaneich @tranzer yeah, GNO didn't sell enough IMHO but i'm not on team so won't throw stones -- just sayin' as observer
mward Why only 15M$ max? Don't you think the ico will end very fast?
moobox i am just hoping maybe some person sees it and says "i want that too"
tranzer @brendaneich are you still active in JavaScript development? Could there be any kind of cooperation with Ark in the future (also asking main dev of Ark @fixcrypt ) ?
brendaneich @dafty did you see the reddit link above? besides real (costs money, boots on ground; we're evaluating Blockscore rn) KYC, we have rate limits in mind based on humans, and flow limits so a compromised real user or convincing fraudster can't get $MMs of BATs from friends and family and then pass KYC to send off to a mixer
cannabanana :trollbounce: not to mention two of us are in the bay area
brendaneich start with in-game economics, no exchanges
1nfinite any chance you'll incorporate certain requirements for investments above xx number of Eth for the crowdsale? to prevent 20 big players from buying up the whole thing?
axente How are you guys legally setup? Swiss foundation?
jonathansampson @moobox We have heard similar requests from other users, and are eagerly working towards a release that supports both theming of the browser, and styling of the content. Let us know if you have any other ideas/requests :slightly_smiling_face:
brendaneich add KYC on publishers getting donations (done in prototype form in Brave using bitcoin rn)
add KYC for users wanting to withdraw -- this also means rate/flow controls
fixcrypt @tranzer well the only point would be to use ark as the payment network, instead of ETH, i don’t see any other interaction. Also maybe make brave agnostic enough so people can choose their network payment
brendaneich but for many users the opt-in zero-knowledge ad revenue is not enough to withdraw and they'll donate it
you can net-zero your monthly spend: make ad rev on non-top-20 sites, donate to top 20
I should add we want to start with user-private ad channels, like WeChat
we won't put ads on publishers's slots without their consent and partnership
some will come fast but bigs will be slow
so we're looking for user private ads: in separate tab, wechat-like bot, fullscreen channel, etc.
these can pay most rev share to user
still rate limited, no couch potato as a service lol
dr10 what about the twitch/youtube question? How could this work out?
brendaneich @dr10 we've always had a design that denotes payee with URL including path to youtube/twitch account, not just domain name
but we start with domain name for beta/MVP
will get team on twitch/youtube in coming months, it's hot topic
everyone wants it, we're just busy (24 people now)
crowdsale will help
can hire more to parallelize a bit
dr10 so you are working on a solution to pay off individuals within the brave-system, right?
@ yt / twitch
brendaneich @mward we debated cap on basicattentiontoken.slack.com and consensus was to keep at $15M -- but a few still suggest raising or no cap, much concern about fast sell-out and whales buying too much
mward yes, that is my concern.
look at gnosis distribution..
brendaneich @tranzer yes, i'm on Ecma TC39 and still active / consulted
mward you need a lot of small investors, not whales
dr10 When you implement Tor-like stuff. Can I also Download stuff via ToVpn? just using the Tor-Tab to download
brendaneich @1nfinite we aren't going to change the contracts, in third audit currently. we can't really limit whales who have tools to buy from lots of addresses
@axente we are not swiss but looking at tax optimization structures pre-launch; brave is delaware (US) c corp; trade group would be 501c6, need to pass IRS muster so that is many months after launch
axente Oke thanks
1nfinite got it, thanks. So will there be a cap for how much can be donated per address?
brendaneich @fixcrypt code is hacked, security never done; no silver bullets. but people are easier to hack and hack themselves lol
dr10 Is the brave browser running in a sandbox like chrome?
dafty how are inappropriate ads handled on the network, is there some form of reputation system for advertisers?
brendaneich @mward GNO sold too little, cetaceans eat too much agreed. GNT sold more and we can't find on-chain huge buys
@dr10 use Tor private tab, yeah
jonathansampson @dr10 That is correct.
brendaneich btw does everyone know Brave supports magnet: and .torrent now via WebTorrent integration?
@dr10 yes, we use chromium with the same sandbox -- had to fork electron hard (twice) to do this, btw. Slack uses unsandboxed chromium renderer processes :disappointed:
tranzer I think I'm sold on brave today will definately try it out
jonathansampson @tranzer Awesome. Let us know if you have any feedback!
brendaneich @dafty we haven't taken any ads at all yet so start from clean slate. no exchanges, ads bearing malware get thru, also https://whiteops.com/methbot fraud on sell side steals revenue by putting real ads into fake slots clicked by fake users whiteops.com Methbot | White Ops Digital Advertising Security. Enterprise Security Solutions. Bots are bad for business; we're bad for bots. (4kB)
our plan is to go direct to agencies who get ads from brands
our ads are opt in
no surprises for our users who want and expect baseline Brave to block
djselery @brendaneich what are your feelings about IPFS?
dr10 Will the Paying/receiving of tokens in the brave system be easy to understand for non-tech people? Is there some kind of tutorial or easy buttons or something like that? This is a total new environment for people. You have any plans for "educating" people or making it easy to use. Like a browser-integrated Balance? Easy overviews?
brendaneich if you opt in, you can start with light touch but to get BAT out you must KYC
@dr10 have you used Brave Payments (beta) yet? the support is built in
usable UX
tranzer will you need to do KYC also if you transfer to Brave and after that decide to put it out on exchange?
brendaneich we are moving (with new name, not "Payments") to second beta with Stripe as partner for users to fund automicrodonation wallet without seeing bitcoin
dr10 I have it installed and browse with it, but it is not taking me by the hand. I wouldnt know whats going it. I will look deeper into it.
brendaneich @djselery juan DMed me and we chatted about their JS implementation following WebTorrent into Brave -- it could happen. couldn't take the Go impl :wink:
@tranzer if you buy BATs as investor, no KYC -- just send ETH to token contract once launched, get BAT back
dr10 Maybe implementing something like a tutorial when starting brave browser would be nice. I am thinking of people who dont know any of this stuff and are not interested into researching it a whole lot
alexius89 @brendaneich are there partnerships with any exchanges (Bittrex, Bitshares etc.) planned or already confirmed after the crowdfund has ended?
geezee @brendaneich you should accept ARK :smile: :smile:
brendaneich @tranzer if you are a user of Brave after we launch BAT and have it integrated, and want to opt into ads, no KYC at first but the funds (to which you will have multisig custody, similar to bitcoin setup with BitGo wallet today in Brave for donations) flow in API-keyed and browser-automated fashion toward the accounting server that settles donations behind the anonize barrier
@tranzer if you want to send BATs from your wallet to other destinations then KYC needed
@dr10 go to Preferences / Payments; the Coinbase buy widget integration is US-only and a bit much for average users, wherefore our Stripe partnership
if you have BTC already, you can just fund your wallet and start
we have pinning (Patreon in the browser) in 0.15.2 now
so you can support sites with x% of your monthly budget whether you browse there or not
dr10 Will I earn more then I pay, when I chose to accept to watch these ads?
brendaneich @dr10 you don't have to pay at all, you can just earn
both donations (currently and in future) and ads (still to come, after BAT launch) are opt-in and separate
dr10 so basically what you say... the average dude can earn money just by browsing? It will be of couse small amounts, but better then nothing
fixcrypt @brendaneich on a business model side, is Brave team earning directly from this (ie part of the revenue redirected to the team for further development)?
tranzer Will bat have finitive coins and nothing added after few years or is there some subsection where you can increase token numbers via smart contract in the future ?
brendaneich @fixcrypt we are selling 70% and 30% floats on side. 10% is user growth pool. remaining 20% is reserves for team, bat.org (shorthand for basicattentiontoken.org; also have attentiontoken.org, attentioneconomics.org) and poss. user growth reserve
dr10 what if nobody choses to donate to pay money to the ad-publishers/BAT. doesnt the concept break down? I mean many people just want to earn. They watch these ads and get money.
brendaneich @fixcrypt biz model for Brave is not fundraising, though -- that's mostly burned down as non-recurring engineering, marketing (ads and growth hacking), etc.
biz model is small percentage (currently 5%) of automicrodonation gross, and larger (maybe 15%) off gross ad spend
these will be public numbers, we want transparency
if we do user-private ads, 85% of rev could go to user
part of Brave's brand is a set of promises: your data only on your devices in clear; we don't track, or store cleartext; rev share to you for opt-in ads at least as our share.
fixcrypt @brendaneich i see some maintenance with regular upgrades from chrome and advertisers relationship, so it needs a regular funding from transations i agree.
brendaneich @dr10 if everyone free-rides then system collapses; note this is risk today on Web, without Brave (which is small-share browser)
on Web today you can use a strong ad blocker like Brave, or Chrome+uBO+Disconnect.me
fixcrypt also will the revenue from donations will be contractual on the blockchain?
cannabanana do you have a contingency plan in case of critical ETH failure in the future?
brendaneich @tranzer contract is super-simple, we are making 1e9 BATs, no plans for more. can subdivide, expect appreciation but then use mostly as medium of exchange and unit of account, not store of value. don't want everyone hoarding. as with real world economies if everyone saved the system would collapse
michaelthecryptoguy for example the double spend issue like bitcoin had
dr10 What are your arguments for people donating for ads/keeping the money circulated. Why shouldn't they just cash-out their money?
Can you tell me an example of how much I would earn by browsing an hour? What is it depending on? Is there a good example to tell to people?
tranzer How are you going to counter exchange BAT price fluctuations? We all know tokens are highly volatile can go up 200% in a day or fall 50% in a day. How will you determine how much is someone paid ? Will you use USD value at time of contract with publisher / advertiser?
cannabanana @brendaneich wouldn't it be better to have a better distribution of BAT tokens during the ICO? currently in our environment with ICOs which have been selling out instantly is that there are like 10 whale ETH investors who get all the coins and hoard leaving out like 99.5% of the people who would have invested. (edited)
dr10 Dont know if I missed it. How much BAT will I get for 1 ETH?
fixcrypt @tranzer agree volatility is something advertisers don’t like (edited)
brendaneich @fixcrypt good q about transactional on blockchain, we do it all on bitcoin blockchain currently. we want transparency
have i mentioned ad tech is full of non-transparency, price gouging, etc.?
see http://digiday.com/marketing/proverbial-black-box-open-exchange-auctions-transparency-problem/ Digiday ‘A proverbial black box’: Open-exchange auctions have a transparency problem - Digiday Demand-side platforms are unclear about how supply-side platforms charge their publisher partners, and they can't tell if a bid price is inflated. (199kB) Yesterday at 6:00 AM
@dr10 we haven't pinned the ratio and won't till close to launch date in view of ETH volatility
we are raising $15M equiv
dr10 tranzers question is good
like to know that too
brendaneich @cannabanana global war, giant meteor impact, etc. -- "exiguous circumstances" -- leave us with no good alternative, i mean this in deep civilizational sense. BAT launch will be least of our concerns. Short of these, the risk to Ethereum is low. could have primal flaw in design exposed. would have to rebase on another blockchain -- would be hard, tons of risk
catching up...
cannabanana do you guys even believe in blockchain?
tranzer Rebase to Ark :trollbounce:
cannabanana ok, nm.
brendaneich @tranzer can't volatility hedge yet (gamma hedge) as far as i know -- anyone know diff?
@cannabanana i believe in blockchain -- as with standards, the great thing about blockchains is there are so many :stuck_out_tongue:
@cannabanana we see no whalesign in GNT; if you mean GNO, see above. they sold too little
cannabanana well I also believe but not in ETH so you are basically only allowing ETH believers to partake in your project
michaelthecryptoguy Wow!! You are doing great @ brendaneich :goodjob: In the dedication and effort department! ::ghostfaceuk_node: (edited)
mward @cannabanana you can simply exchange btc to eth for ico. After ico ends and you have tokens, sell them for profit :trollbounce:
cannabanana and many projects recently "sold out" within minutes by 2m equivalent single transactions
@mward I wont ever buy any eth ever
brendaneich @cannabanana we are not religious about it, as noted above: tokens on Ethereum are proven tech (still young, mistakes and latent bugs, risk for sure but less than alternative token/smart-contract platforms). we are using Ethereum for smart contract based tokens and that's it
cannabanana that's not the point
you still must believe in it if you are only accepting eth
brendaneich @cannabanana did you actually check "many projects" to prove whalesign? we looked at some and aside from GNO couldn't find it
cannabanana :slightly_smiling_face: g/l
brendaneich @cannabanana we believe stuff, yes; have to believe to get up in morning, do anything
cannabanana i've been following altcoins since 2013
yes, i've seen them sell out in minutes
brendaneich but we are not Ethereum true believers in some zealot sense
cannabanana then why not accept bitcoin for the ICO
because of hte risk you said.
brendaneich i will say ETH price rise is scary; but EEA (JP Morgan -- federal reserve founder!) backing Ethereum is huge
mike i had a very bad experience with HEAT using Ethereum, still have to pursue it to track it down - time consuming so have put it off. Used an online wallet, jaxx, i think, since installing and waiting days for blockchain was a lot more than i wanted to deal with. Maybe there are better alternatives now.
cannabanana sorry man, didnt mean to hijack your ama
brendaneich @cannabanana accept bitcoin how?
hardcode a bitcoin address in the token contract?
Zooko's XCAT scheme?
it's cool but no thanks
K.I.S.S. rules
we will not multiply risk (odds ratios) of independent events
that's a good way to die
cannabanana wow you are a jerkoff man
I just wanted to invest in your project
but wont touch eth
brendaneich i was at a startup before Netscape (MicroUnity), talked to Jim Clark when I got to Netscape. said "we were doing ten hard things at once that all had to work for success" and Clark said "odds were 1e-10!"
cannabanana good god, good for you man
1nfinite way to be respectful @cannabanana - just because of some feud you have with ETH, too
brendaneich @cannabanana i'm not the one calling names here
techbytes let's not digress... stay on topic please
brendaneich i do like XCAT, check it out. cross chain atomic transactions
1nfinite thanks for the transparency here and taking the time to answer our questions @brendaneich
brendaneich np
i think i'm over time
did i miss anyone's q?
dr10 dr10 What are your arguments for people donating for ads/keeping the money circulated. Why shouldn't they just cash-out their money?
Can you tell me an example of how much I would earn by browsing an hour? What is it depending on? Is there a good example to tell to people?
brendaneich @dr10 thanks
dr10 np :smile:
tranzer Thanks brendan for answering all of my questions - good luck with the project I'll be sure to participate
brendaneich if people see ads and cash out, the ad business is working and perhaps it dominates
moobox thank you for answering my questions also
brendaneich today's web relies mostly on ads, few paywalls and they convert poorly
i have a feeling with automatic, anonymous microdonations and payments we will see more of that and less reliance on ads
but cannot count ads out, for sure
mike any chance of eliminating the KYC so people can just withdraw their BAT and trade it?
brendaneich @dr10 comScore had a figure of 100 page views per user per day
devin Bitcoin is to slow
mike i don't see where kyc adds any value for the users.
tranzer @mike you won't need KYC if you are just going to trade as far as I got this (edited)
brendaneich assume we partner on one ad per page (just for easy math; i don't like this model and think user-private ad channel with one ad per day might be much better)
100 ad impressions per day, 3000/month, if $3CPM that is $9/month
twitchard Is there some way/what do you think would be the best way for developers interested in advancing your mission to contribute?
brendaneich if we put the ads in user private channel and share 85% to user, that is $7.65/month to user
$3CPM is low figure
dr10 CPM means?
mike like the idea very much over all.
noslawxtrafries cost per impression I believe
brendaneich it's an ad cost model: Cost Per Mille (Mille from Latin for 1000 impressions)
video ads pay more; not just CPM but CPX for X = watch a video by quartiles; watch to end; click on download promotion after end (usually game ad)
mike so KYC is just to withdraw to fiat, but to withdraw to an exchange or another wallet is unrestricted?
brendaneich @devin yes, bitcoin too slow; no privacy either (edited)
devin Screw bitcoin
I want a project that accepts both
brendaneich @mike KYC is required or fraud kills the system faster than regulators (who will kill it too) (edited)
@devin there are projects doing this but they are "upstream" of ours
dr10 What are your 3 major arguments for mass adoption of Brave Browser. - Some Slogan you would give to magazines, etc.
brendaneich Fast (3-7x, see next link), Private, and you get paid for your attention
but remember we want the 501c6 trade association if we sell out. BAT is for multiple apps
mike have you looked at Blockstack for ID as an alternative to KYC?
brendaneich more than Brave
@mike yes (I know founders and saw them recently); that doesn't help
dr10 yeah but Brave will be the flagship of BAT token, right? Or any other big vision planned? (edited)
brendaneich @dr10 Brave will be first, yes
eventually everything here should be a standard
nothing's proprietary
twitchard Could BAT be implemented as a plugin/extension to other browsers? (Would it be more practical to fork?) (edited)
dr10 good question
mike or is KYC just needed for a threshold to withdraw above. it does seem there would be a pratical limit of how much organic ad traffic a user would be exposed to.
brendaneich blockchain, ZKP, even functional specs for KYC, definitely payments -- all should be standards used by lots of apps and services and people
@mike please find "rate" and "flow" above
ryano Dpos is probably the best consensus approach for things like this
devin @brendaneich thanks
brendaneich @twitchard BAT in extension is unclear as extensions have limited APIs, and often must be loaded from a store that has rules
kik got thrown out of iOS app store for doing its own payments some years back
CWS kicked out Ad Nauseum
mike i can see where someting is needed to mitigate clickfarms in low wage regions.
brendaneich i'm half hour overtime so have to go soon
@mike yes, and sybil attacks to route funds to a mule
stuff like that
ryano Thanks for your time Brendan
twitchard Thank you
brendaneich np, it was fun (except for the jerkoff thing :-/)
tranzer Thanks good luck
dr10 thank you very much
ryano Let me guess canna ?
cannabanana lol
man I asked a legit question and got shit on
so fuck it
jakethepanda Hi everyone. As Brendan mentioned, he will be wrapping up the AMA. @brendaneich Thank you for your time.
1nfinite thanks @brendaneich , learned a lot just from the terminology you've been using. Will spend time looking into all this, but your project sounds great
ryano Still dude, it's not good if you are predictably the one causing trouble
brendaneich @dr10 here's the "Fast" money shot
cannabanana well some people can't all be agreeable
brendaneich uploaded this image: Pasted image at 2017-05-09, 10:33 AM Add Comment
ryano You are the only one where this is an ongoing issue
It's bad for our community
cannabanana no, it's not. it's good because I give a different perspective on things. I'm not like you and I don't agree.
you think the success of ark has been on the backs of all the "good" ones?
brendaneich @cannabanana us taking ETH and me giving the reasons why we won't multiply risk is not me shitting on you -- we will have to just miss out on you this time. i wish we could take multiple currencies but it's an exchange problem at this point. maybe XCATs help in future
cannabanana I asked a legit question about what if it fails. what about hte investors?
is that not a legit question?
1nfinite WHAT ABOUT CONSUMERS????
cannabanana if you want me to put money in, I want to put in something I believe in
not something I dont
mike yes, if they want to stick with ETH, it's their call. Obviously plenty of ICOs have been successful with it, so it will continue in the future.
cannabanana consumers too, it's the same thing if it fails then the system is gone then the peopel who bought the bat to use are all out too.
brendaneich @cannabanana that's (https://arkecosystem.slack.com/archives/C41QFMCKH/p1494351381880292) fair and it means in a market, sometimes you don't make a deal -- you hold out for better product later (edited)
calling names and getting mad because someone won't do what you demand -- not fair. my 2 cents anyway
ryano You can't be calling guests jerk offs and trolls every time they don't tell you what you want. This is an ongoing issue with you. Nobody else here is lashing out at people except you and there are nearly 2000 people here.
jamiec79 oh lordy...
jamie exits the room quietly
cannabanana you know what nm
techbytes @brendaneich appreciate you stopping by today. Will put AMA on Reddit for others to find out more about your project.
brendaneich @techbytes thanks for having me
ryano Thanks Brendan
nt91 Brendan thank you for coming
ominous.shark Yeah, thanks for the AMA! @brendaneich ARK community appreciates it!
mike thanks for taking the time to talk with us about BAT, good luck with it.
michaelthecryptoguy :goodjob: Brendan and :goodluck: with the BAT ICO (edited)
boldninja Thanks @brendaneich - good luck with BAT
brendaneich thanks again
submitted by Jarunik to ArkEcosystem [link] [comments]

Bitcoin in Miami Citi Mobile Hackathon

We presented our Decentralized Autonomous Escrow service for Bitcoin at the Citi Mobile Challenge yesterday, and surprisingly found some interest at the event.
Most people were a little confused, and the time allotted didn't give us time to elaborate on several of the use cases for Bitcoin, but overall it was a good experience. Decentral Bank got written about and some bankers were introduced to Bitcoin tech uses.
Our Project uses multisig tech to allow banks not to handle Bitcoin directly, acting as a notary instead, together with voting pools we pitched the idea of taking bitcoin mainstream by allowing easy cash to cryptocurrency transactions, think storage (storj, maidsafe)
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dVw9dcHRW8
Article: http://miamiherald.typepad.com/the-starting-gate/2014/11/citi-holds-a-demo-day-for-its-citi-mobile-challenge-finalists-will-start-a-meetup-.html
@decentralteam decentralbank.com
submitted by ucerron to Bitcoin [link] [comments]

TLSNotary - auditing fiat transfers to enable decentralised bitcoin-fiat exchange - ready for testing.

Link to project open source code and docs.
5 second version: prove that a certain html page was in your browser, without revealing anything except its content.
This project is the result of about 2 person-years of work. We wanted to find a way to create a cryptographic proof of a bank transfer, or similar electronic payment. Basically, you'd be able to (but usually wouldn't need to) provide undeniable proof of a fiat payment without revealing privileged info. like your bank account login information.
Eventually we settled on a model that uses a novel technique to split control of the session keys in a TLS/SSL session. Notably, though, we kept the basic security model of TLS intact.
The code is available to be tested. It's explained in the README how you can do this easily (only dependencies being Firefox and Python) on Linux, Mac and Windows, and in particular, how you can do it alone ("self-test") without sharing any data with anyone else.
On the project main page you'll see links to explanatory videos (not amazing quality but useful I hope), the core crypto algorithm document, a basic user guide (in the README), and a guide for how to act as auditor.
Our main motivation for posting to reddit is that some people will be interested enough to try it out. We don't expect that it will work properly for all banks, or all websites generally; hence, we'd like feedback on whether it works for you.
The big picture: how could it be used? In the central use case, an auditor would take the role of reading the bank transfer information (hence the need for human agents) and making sure that it corresponds to the data on the contract. This would only happen in case of dispute. Anyone, in principle, could take that role of auditor, and in the spirit of decentralised marketplaces, auditors could be chosen based on reputations (a little like it's been done in the past by escrow agents on the btctalk forums, or look at the arbitrators on bitrated.com for another example).
For a more developed view of how this could mesh with the classic fiat-btc problem, check out bitsquare and their vision of how to do decentralised exchange of fiat for bitcoin. In their model, the buyers and sellers make bids and offers on a DHT and get matched up according to mutually agreed filter criteria, and disputes are arbitration using arbitrators that are, again, mutually agreed, and using methods that both sides agree on (where TLSNotary would be one such). See their website, docs and vids for more detail about this.
It should go without saying by now for most people, but the idea is that the arbitrator has the 3rd of 3 multisig keys to give him the power of assignment, but not confiscation, in dispute.
As you saw from the 5 second version, this is not just about bank transfers, and it's not just about bitcoin (the code knows nothing about bitcoin). TLSNotary could be useful in cases where certain information is kept by a trusted third party, but is stored privately. A user may want to use that stored and trusted info as proof - examples might be online identities, proof of solvency (is Bitstamp fiat solvent?), or perhaps proof of delivery in decentralised marketplaces like Openbazaar. These ideas are not fleshed out and may not make sense, but it could be worth thinking about.
We'll address any technical questions in the comments. And of course, troubleshoot if necessary.
submitted by waxwing to Bitcoin [link] [comments]

The case for Ethereum: general-purpose vs special-purpose blockchains

Bitcoin and Alt-coins are Special-Purpose Chains

What's the difference between a general-purpose blockchain and a special-purpose blockchain? Let's start with bitcoin, the original special-purpose chain for computing and comparing sha256 hashes. Bitcoin users started the chain by mining on generic x86 (general-purpose) CPUs. But because sha256 hashing is a specific computation, btc mining is now dominated by Application Specific Integrated Circuit (ASIC) hardware. Litecoin is another special-purpose chain, except it computes scrypt hashes (some manufacturers are already started shipping scrypt ASIC miners). There's also a Primecoin for computing prime numbers, and a bunch of other special-purpose chains commonly known as alt-coins.

Special-Purpose Chains: Backend and User Perspective

How does it work when we want to use the services provided by separate special-purpose chains? Let's look at the granddaddy of alt-coins, namecoin, which like bitcoin uses sha256 hashes. Additionally, it also provides some standard namecoin script opcodes for associating plaintext pseudonyms with unique addresses (public/private keypairs), so namecoin addresses can register and "own" domain names or identities/handles. Let's say you want to use bitcoins to purchase a namecoin .bit domain that its owner is selling. What does it take to get these two special-purpose blockchains (bitcoin and namecoin) to interact with each other? The immediate option (and the only one available today) is a centralized service running a web server in front of both p2p daemons (as nodes of their respective networks, bitcoind and namecoind). That centralized service is a BTC/NMC exchange, and maybe it has an interface allowing you to register "dot-bit" names (otherwise you'd have to open up two separate wallets - one for each coin). The centralized exchange is a trusted third-party that holds in escrow the BTC and NMC of each user (whose coins could be stolen by a dishonest exchange operator).

A General-Purpose Chain: Backend and User Perspective

So how is using a unified general-purpose chain different from a special-purpose one? On the Ethereum general-purpose chain, each service is provided by some "DApp" (distributed app "hosted" by all ethereum miners). A DApp is an interface to a specific "contract", running at some address on the blockchain. For instance, to register a name, you would open the EtherNames DApp in the ethereum client's built-in browser, type in the name you want to register, and "send" the registration as a transaction with data. There's no need to copy and paste addresses since the Ethereum client provides hooks for seamless wallet access inside every DApp. The registration transaction is sent to the EtherName DApp's contract address, which is running some variant of the namecoin contract code. A specific contract gets initialized at a particular address by some untrusted third-party individual/entity (the DApp author). The contract author is not trusted, all the author does is upload the contract code and pay the initial "gas" fee. The contract code is independently executed and verified by each ethereum miner as part of a single atomic transaction. Atomicity means that the ledger database updates are all-or-nothing, so no user has to worry about the risk of having to pay first because any and all transactions needed to fulfill a contract are guaranteed to occur within the same block, or the contract is broken and won't run at all. Think of Ethereum contracts as interconnected threads in a big web of complex multi-sig transactions of Ethers and contract-specific sub-currencies, all of which run atop the same unified blockchain.

Special-Purpose Chains: Developer Perspective

From the developer's perspective, operating a service that uses two separate special-purpose chains requires maintaining both blockchains (upgrading separate software, providing enough processing power, disk space, and bandwidth for each chain). It also requires maintaining user accounts, as well as wallets on two separate chains (multiplied by the number of users). Hosting a server is needed to run both the namecoin daemon and bitcoin daemon (unless outsourced to a centralized API). The web developer will need to maintain a web server and app stack such as LAMP (Linux Apache Mysql Php) or MEAN (Mongodb Express Angular Node). Finally, the service must hold the users' deposits of bitcoins and namecoins in secure hot wallets and offline cold storage, keeping them safe from hacker thieves. Altogether, every service operator needs to independently maintain a separate full-stack system, which can be a herculean effort.

A General-Purpose Chain: Developer Perspective

A service operating on Ethereum has a DApp backend hosted right on the blockchain, maintained by miners (who earn gas fees). A developer simply authors the contract code and pays the gas fee to initialize it on the blockchain, which is much easier than forking an alt-coin to start yet another genesis block. DApp's do not need a separate API for access and integration by other developers; authors just name functions inside a contract, directly exposing an API (with optional fee-per-use) that enables message calls from any other Ethereum DApp. Also, DApp authors do not need to maintain user accounts, since the users interact with the DApp directly on the blockchain through their ethereum addresses. Nor do DApp authors need to maintain user wallets since private keys stay private in a decentralized system. Unlike the current convention where coins are deposited to a wallet address controlled by some third-party, in a truly decentralized system private keys are only used for signing transactions as inputs to contracts.

Meta-Coins as Feature Specs

Meta-coin protocol extensions like Colored Coins, MasterCoin, and CounterParty work by organizing a group of users who agree to interpret bitcoin transaction data according to some metadata specification, supplementing the base rules of the bitcoin protocol. For example, MasterCoin specifies creating multisig 1-of-n bitcoin transactions and encoding data in the n-minus-1 unused public keys. In the meta-coin approach, each feature or "contract" is specified in the meta-protocol. Two MasterCoin features are registration of a data stream and the creation of a sub-currency, these are baked into the specification and reference client alongside the other features. While you can register new data streams and sub-currencies, if you want to create a new contract that is some kind of a hybrid between a data stream and a sub-currency, such as a call/put option or a Contract For Difference (CFD), it would need to be implemented directly in the reference client, and unlocked as a feature at some future block number. Implementing new features in a meta-coin protocol that doesn't have a scripting language requires specifying them directly in the protocol and must be effected at the organizational level.

Scripts and DApps vs Forks and Features

Embedding a scripting language into a crypto-currency gives it the same kind of extensibility that gamers crave in video games. Scripts empower players to create "mods" and customize their game-world with new levels, characters, and maps. In the crypto-currency world, scripting allows for the extension of a plethora of decentralized features such as trading, lotteries, and ecommerce, all atop a shared, compatible platform. Bitcoin has a scripting language, but with severe limitations including: lack of loops, binary state variables limited to spent or unspent transaction outputs, and blockchain blindness. The difficulty of using bitcoin script has in effect given rise to a landscape of competing alt-coins and meta-coins with incompatible protocols. The preferable route, and vision of Ethereum, is to foster a fully-featured ecosystem of compatible, interacting DApps. Providing a Turing-complete scripting language on a general-purpose blockchain with message calls between contracts stimulates adoption of Ethereum as a shared decentralized Operating System and kernel.

Decentralized House, Decentralized Dealer

Consider the concept of a decentralized lottery. In a semi-decentralized lottery that is merely provably fair, although the operator is not capable of altering any particular dice outcome, he can simply shut down the service immediately after a big winning bet comes in, scamming the user of his money and winnings. But in a fully decentralized lottery, the mechanism for distributing the winnings is written into the contract itself (open-source and audited by users), so no central operator is needed. While writing such a contract in bitcoin script is theoretically possible (see pages 12-15), to my knowledge none has been implemented. In practice, it is easier to create a LottoCoin as a special-purpose alt-chain. In contrast, writing a script on the Ethereum platform for a fully decentralized lottery is not only feasible but relatively easy.

Conclusion

The limitations and difficulties of using bitcoin script to implement decentralized features natively on the bitcoin blockchain has resulted in a fragmented ecosystem of incompatible, competing alt-chains and meta-coins. While it is theoretically possible to use bitcoin script for complex contracts like cross-chain atomic trading, practical implementations of such features have yet to be achieved (to my knowledge). On the other hand, Ethereum focuses on providing an easy-to-use scripting language for implementing advanced contracts on a general-purpose blockchain. Ethereum's extensible platform enables the realization of advanced decentralized features that previously were inaccessible.
submitted by martinBrown1984 to ethereum [link] [comments]

Bitcoin Bet + How To use Caravan Multi-Sig - YouTube Bitcoin 101 - Multi-Signature Addresses pt1 - YouTube How to create and use Multi Sig Bitcoin Wallets How To Create a Secure Multisignature Wallet and Send Multisignature Transactions Automatic Escrow with Bitcoin

I've been trying to import my multisig paper wallet to Bitcoin Core. I am in possession of the private keys and the redeem script. The private keys are in uncompressed WIF format (i.e. start with a '5'... bitcoin-core multi-signature paper-wallet private-key-import. asked Aug 18 at 17:08. user109264. 1. 0. votes. 1answer 24 views How to know the destination address of a multisig? Run this ... One of the great things about bitcoin is the use of multisignature technology, or otherwise known as multisig. Traditionally speaking, with bitcoin you Generate a multisig address: Gather (or generate) 3 bitcoin addresses, on whichever machines will be participating, using getnewaddress or getaccountaddress RPC commands (or copy and paste from the GUI). Get their public keys using the validateaddress RPC command 3 times. Then create a 2-of-3 multisig address using addmultisigaddress; e.g. Multisig vs Escrow vs Preliminaries and what that means. by admin April 23, 2020, 4:34 pm 1.9k Views 3 Comments Darknet Multisig vs Escrow vs Preliminaries and what that means. Planning to purchase Bitcoin from an untrusted person or company? You can minimize the risks by using Bitcoin escrow services. Let’s find out how these platforms can help you, and which BTC escrow platforms are worth your trust and attention. What is BTC Escrow Service? A Bitcoin escrow service is an intermediary between the participants of a crypto transaction. It is often used when a ...

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Bitcoin Bet + How To use Caravan Multi-Sig - YouTube

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